Fairchild C-119F C-119G N3003/'03' (c/n 10737?; www.oldprops.ukhome.net/C119 Census).
Now here is a surprise: its certificate was renewed on 13Mar2014!
For B&G Industries LLC of Greybull,WY..
Registration 'N3003' is a continued headache for there seem to be two of them..
Note the pod has '03'.
Spoiler alert: below research concluded this is c/n 10872 and the C-119 that moved to the Atterbury-Bakalar Air
Museum. John Giambone visited this C-119 there in 2023, see C-119 Dossier PAGE #4.
Here are the results of research and correspondence between Michael Roeser and Paul Seymour (@Airhistory.net).
Michael shared some photos with me. The research aims to identify a few C-119 Flying Boxcar mysteries, including
the N3003 versus a fake 'N3003'and N5216R versus a fake 'N5216R'.
Serial No 10872. Date accepted 18Mar53. Contract F33 038 1849.
My database ties c/n 10872 to N961S, @Museum of Flight & Aerial Firefighting. But I don't think that is correct,
probably a misinterpretation by the museum of information on the internet. N961S was polished to a metal finish.
This is confirmed by in depth research carried out by Paul Seymour and Michael Roeser
(his collection can be found on on Airhistory.net)
Paul wrote (Jan.2023): 'These photos were taken on the C-119 at Atterbury-Bakalar. The guy from the museum never
got
back to me again. I still think the correct ID for it is c/n 10872. From photo above it looks like an original plate.
You can also work that out from a process of elimination by checking all the known C-119s at Greybull and what happened
to them. My GREYBULL-Logs.
One will find the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum at 4742 Ray Boll Boulevard, Columbus, IN.
Nick Firestone: 'The 1st data plate to the left of the pilot in the window frame. The serial number on that plate is 10872."
Presumed fake 'N3003'/'03' ex/ Greybull,WY, transported Spring 2020 to Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum (BAK).
This is the communication between Paul and the Bakalar museum in May 2022:
Paul: 'I am a database editor for the aviation photography site Airhistory.net. I understand that your C-119 is N3003, which came from Greybull, WY.
We have problems with the history of this aircraft as there were two C-119s marked as N3003 at Greybull for many years. You can see photos of both of them at the link: www.airhistory.net/pub/show all= n3003&_sort_date
We believe that 'the other one' (?) was the real N3003, which had manufacturer's serial number 10737 and was formerly Royal Canadian Air Force 22106.
We have not been able to trace the correct identity [construction no. -RL] for your aircraft.
Do you have any information on its correct identity (msn) and is there an identity plate on it?'
Paul Seymour
Response by Nick:
'I found 3 (different!) data plates and have attached their photos.
The 1st data plate was to the left of the pilot in the window frame. The serial number on that plate is 10872.
The 2nd data plate is in the same location as the photo of the data plate with serial number 10684 in Ft. Campbell, KY (LINK C-119s at Fort Campbell,KY - "There was a small data plate between the pilot and the copilot position").
This serial number of the plate in our aircraft is 10868.
The 3rd data plate is on the forward bulkhead, to the right of the stairs, when you are facing toward the rear of the aircraft from the flight deck. The serial number on that plate is 10737. This is a Hawkins & Powers data plate.
[So we have one airframe with 3 construction number plates inside!!! Note H&P played around with their FAA tailnumbers and registry -Webmaster,RL]
During the above session, I did not closely inspect the aft side of the forward bulkhead, so I will need to do that during my next visit [no follow up e-mail with a result -Webmaster,RL], although I don't remember seeing a data plate in that area...
I haven't had a chance to look at any of the records we received with the aircraft, so will try to do that also when
I can. [no follow up e-mail with a result -Webmaster,RL],
Nick Firestone - President | Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum (21May2022)
Jan.2023 pix on C-119 Dossier Page #4 by John Giambone.
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C-119C Serial 10868. Date accepted 17Feb53. Contract F33
038 18499
I did have c/n 10868 in my database!
Found c/n 10868 listed w/ Planelogger: 10868 C-119G Flying Boxcar MM52-6010 Italian Air Force. Scrapped.
On my C-119 Dossier Page4 I have (1970s) document also stating '10868 C-119G MM52-6010 '46-23' wfu Pisa 5.76.'
www.oldprops.ukhome.net/C119 Census has no C-119 C/n 10868 nor MM52-6010.
Joe Baugher has: '52-6010 (msn 10868) to Italian AF as MM52-6010. Batch 52-6000/6058 Fairchild C-119G Flying Boxcar.'
C-119C serial plate marked 10868.
Fake!
These pix were all photographed at the BAK museum.
Three different construction plates on this C-119..!
C/n 10737. Acording to Michael's research this is a candidate for N3003. But fake for this airframe.
This plate showing 10737 shows Hawkins and Powers transferring that identity from the other N3003.
Serial 10737 -> N3003 @Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum. Two 'rogue' S/n 10737 plates in the same aircraft..
Plate by Hawkins & Powers Aviation of Greybull,WY. We know they messed around with serial plates.
A H&P serial plate is almost synonym with falsehood. They were known for swapping identites. That may have had
something to do with a deal with USAFM where H&P would get old C-130A Hercules planes they could convert to
aerial firefighters and the USAFM would get a historic C-119 for display. This deal never happened for H&P.
Paul Seymour (2022): 'Our photos @Airhistory.net show that there were two C-119s marked as N3003 at Greybull from at least
1989 to 2003.
We think that the correct N3003 is c/n 10737 ex-RCAF 22106.
The 1979 photo shows the serial 22106, later photos show it painted over.
The 2003 photo is our last photo of it. It had gone by Aad’s visit in 2006. Probably scrapped.
Hawkins and Powers transferred the identity of N3003 to a 'fake' N3003 which is now preserved at the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum, Columbus,IN.
C/n
10868 cannot be the correct identity. That was USAF 52-6010, which went to the Italian Air Force as MM52-6010 and was scrapped at Pisa, Italy around 1978.
The plate showing c/n 10684, located as in the same place on the C-119 at Ft.Campbell,KY is not the correct identity for this aircraft.'
Paul again (2022): 'It appears that the plate on the window frame with 10872 on it is the correct one for that aircraft.'
Since c/n 10868 is suggested to be C-119G MM52-6010
also by some other sources I too maintain c/n 10872 for the BAK Museum C-119!
Jan.2023 pix on C-119 Dossier Page #4 by John Giambone.
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Back to Greybull 2014
N3003, with jetpod '03'. C/n 10872, determined above.
This N3003/03 was moved to the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum during Spring 2020 for display.
Michael Roeser wrote to me (05May22): "I (and certainly not me alone) have been wondering about the identity of a certain
C-119 @Greybull: the anonymous 'N3003' in bare metal with an '03' pod on it.
As the real N3003 (msn 10737) was also present in faded RCAF colours I had been in discussion with the ever helpful people at Airhistory.net (Paul Seymour) about the real identity of the fake one.
At one time presumed to be msn 10738 preserved at Hill AFB Museum (Utah) this seems to have been ruled out. Would you be able to shed some light on this? If you would be interested in using my images on Airhistory.net please feel free to do so.
Thanks and regards.'
Michael (25Jan23): 'My conclusion is that N961S (photo 1979) changed its identity to N3003 (the 2nd) with HP applying new plates..??
Does tie in with sightings and outer appearance.
That 1979 photo shows 4-bladed props. Removed by H&P?
It had spray bars fitted at one stage and also has some other unique features.
Perhaps they tried to find other work when the USFS banned the C-119´s.
Nevertheless it never flew again and ended up in the Bakalar museum (@Colombus.IN).' RL: thought to be c/n 10872!
Where its 'Charlie 119 Project' shows 3-bladed props... Changed by BAK Museum?
Paul Seymour wrote (2022): 'A 1979 photo (LINK "Airhistory.net) of the original N3003 shows the Canadian serial 22106 visible on the tail. It had already lost its engines and looked in poor condition.
That photo also shows where Canadian flag and serial is on the tail. One can see where the Canadian flag was on the tail on photos of the Bakalar C-119. Maybe the Canadian serial is now hidden under the paint.
I expect Hawkins and Powers (H&P) will have tried to remove the true identity from the BAK C-119.
In later photos it has been painted over.
Our last photo of this airframe was taken in 2003. It had gone by 2006. Probably scrapped.
I suspect that Hawkins and Powers reg'd it as N3003 and found it was in too bad a condition to use, so they transferred its identity of N3003 to another aircraft...
This would have been before 1989 which is when our oldest photo of the BAK C-119 was taken.
The USFS banned C-119s from firefighting after a crash in 1987.' ->N48076, operated by H&P.
Michael (no date): 'I agree [with Paul Seymour, @Airhistory.net] that the Bakalar aircraft is the FAKE & metal N3003. See the faded '07' on the clamshell door!
They could have been changed, though it features many other details like 3 bladed props, the 2nd anti collision light on top and other details like the position of the "Restricted" titles.
Short nose but outline shows it had a long one!
Ties in with msn 10738 ex/ RCAF 12107.
It was present @Greybull from ca.1987 till at least 2018, matching transport to Columbus,IN. [Spring 2020 -RL]
My theory is that after the USFS ban of C-119´s in late 1987 they thought about some other use and converted it into a sprayer but it was never registered or used...
Note spray bars were removed in later years.
So the real N3003 remains the RCAF '06' on display at Greybull. It also is the only N3003 in FAA records. And thus c/n 10737'. Note: tagged by the museum as 'N961S'. Doubts remain: could also be c/n 10872?
C-119 KGEY serials by Michael Roeser (2022)
Paul Seymour ((@Airhistory.net) wrote to Michael in May 2022: 'I see you have uploaded your photo of N5216R with the correct c/n. I noticed that two of our photos had the wrong c/n and have corrected them.
They (assume H&) -RL) repainted N3935 as 'N5216R' by 1994 after the real N5216R went to Battle Mountain.
I think that the info for the others except for N3003 on your spreadsheet is correct. Have contacted the museum where the 2nd N3003 went to, and see if they can identify it.'
Paul also wrote (May 2022): 'I agree with you about which aircraft is the correct C/n 22106/N3003 www.airhistory.net/photo/150648/N3003. Our photos of N3003 indicate there were two marked as N3003
during 1989 to 2003. USA Military Out of Service reports c/n 22107 arriving at Hill AFB Museum (Utah) in Nov. '86. I logged it there in 1993 but did not get a photo until 2000.'
Paul also wrote (May 2022), about the duplicated N5216R: 'USA Military Out of Service reports the one
with '06' on the nose is N5215R (ex/RCAF 22108). Two different aircraft were painted as N5216R.
The first ('real') N5216R (ex /RCAF 22121) went to Battle Mountain, NV in 1991 and ended up in Alaska.
N3935 (ex/ RCAF 22113) was repainted as N5216R after 1991.' Perhaps typo in Roeser's list: he duplicated 22131
Distilled from M.Roeser's list above for locations:
Notes to above list:
N3003 c/n 10872/ 10737 moved to the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum. Also has H&P falsified c/n plates.
N3003 c/n 10737 std @GEY. Once m/s '06' (@office/entrance?, (RCAF 221 06). No sightings >2006. Scrapped?
C/n 10824 was displayed as '06'(?) @GEY Museum, has falsely reg'd 'N5216R Tanker 136'.
The real N5216R (c/n 10956) went to air museum @Battle Mountain,NV (closed) and in recent years to Alaska.
N5215R c/n 10773 displayed @GEY Museum of Flight & Aerial Firefighting (allegedly closed) as '06' RCAF c/s.
N8505A c/n 179: std @South Bighorn County Airport. Most likely 1 of 2 C-119s stored @KGEY @G.Earth 7-2023.
N8094 c/n 10994. Most likely the 2nd C-119 still stored (2023) @KGEY @G.Earth 7-2023.
N37637 c/n 253, std KGEY, but no sightings for decades (1980s?), presumed scrapped.
EMAIL add in Sunject the link to what you are referring to, thank you. |
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The ravaged innards of N3003
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Fairchild C-119G N8094
(c/n 10994), registered 06Sep07 to Harold Sheppard (sic) Jr.
Googling I found a Harold Shepard Trucking on the same adress as the FAA website: 39 Burma Road, Riverton(WY).
My money is on the FAA to have made a clerical error..?
But I found the Greybull Standard and minutes of the
Big Horn County Airport also referring to Harold Sheppard Jr.
The latter was summoned, through his attorney, to
move three of his aircraft off the ramp to the plot he was leasing (per 31Jan2012?)
Reportedly still present in 2021.
N8094, how do we know...?
Well, there it is, N8094 spray-painted on the fuselage. Former RCAF 22135.
One can read 'Air Transport Command' in the faded lettering. The large lettering
has (Royal) 'Canadian Air Force'.
Not much left of the cockpit interior.
Plenty of parts in the back though!
Instructions for the loadmaster, I presume. Could find no information on the construction number, etc.
Revealing its former identity, RCAF 22135.
Faded Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) markings
Richard B. Gifford sent me this interesting account in Feb.2015:
"I knew about the old Hawkins and Powers operation at Greybull, but
didn't realize there was such a large bone yard there. Maybe one of
those bright and shiny C-130As from Evreux is there. I noticed that
Clay Lacy attempted to acquire one of the C-97s.
When I was at attached to the Air Force Reserve at Long Beach in
1958, a couple of guys were going over to the Municipal side of the
airport to take their ATP written, and invited me to go with them. I
hadn't studied for it, and by some miracle, passed--but just by a
hair!
Later, with the blessing of our Squadron Commander, I took my
initial ATP check in a C-119. At the time, they required the Canyon
Approach at altitude, with an engine failure during the miss. I told
the Inspector that I could either climb, or turn, but not both. He
was OK with that. Then I did a time-distance check off some radio
beacon. I got the wrong station tuned, and as soon as I recognized
it, announced the problem, retuned the radio, and got the time to
station. I was certain that I had busted the check. We finished up
and I was waiting for my pink slip. To my surprise, the Inspector
handed me my temporary ertificate. I timidly asked why I hadn't
busted for the screwed-up time check.
He told me that it wasn't that I screwed it up, but how I recovered
that he was interested in. He noticed my birth year (1933) and
mentioned that was the year he started flying.
The FAA couldn't give me a type because (I guess) there were no
civilian C-119s in service. I got Airline Transport Pilot,
Multi-engine Land.
When I left the Air Force, I had logged almost
2,500 hours (off to on, not out to in) in the C-119, much of it as an
instructor.
Fast forward to 1993 when I retired from United. My wife (with help
from Clay Lacy) surprised me with a quickie C-119 type rating from
Hawkins and Powers. Or at least, that was the plan. I received the
study material (which included procedures for the third engine, a
3,400 lb thrust Westinghouse J-34) and prepared for the oral. But
when she attempted to schedule the ride, the airplane was always
undergoing maintenance or parked for the season or no Inspector was
available or...
This went on for a couple of years. At one point, one
of the guys got a little nasty with her. Someone in the company
clearly didn't want the business, but for reasons unknown, kept
dragging it out rather than just saying they were no longer in that
line of work. She told me that the father was helpful, and got the
process going toward the C-119 Type Rating. It was the son who was
the jerk. It just depended on who answered the phone that day.
As much as I would have liked it, I never got the original 'C-119' added to my ATP."
Richard B. (Skeet) Gifford
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Photos © R.Leeuw
